The Future of a Sharing Economy & Airbnb's IPO
Wil Slickers: All right. Good morning, Michaels. What is up, dudes? How are we doing today?
Michael Ros: Good morning.
Michael Goldin: What’s going on?
Wil Slickers: Happy holidays. We're getting so close, so close to that time. Is there's still snow over there Mr. Ros or no?
Michael Ros: No. It's gone. So, unfortunately, we can't-- let’s stay inside. But in Holland we celebrate called Sinterklaas. It’s kind of Santa Claus but the Dutch version, on the fifth of December. So, we had some celebrations. Nice family time, so it was good.
Michael Goldin: With your nice little wooden clogs?
Michael Ros: Not those. Not those. Well, you're putting your shoe in front of the chimney, actually. and then you're getting some surprises so it's a pretty funny tradition, but he's leaving on the sixth of December. So, he's gone. And that was waiting for Santa Claus, so.
Wil Slickers: That's sick. I love it.
Well, I'm going to do a quick little, you know, shout out. And then, we'll hit our intro song. Shout out to hostfully who is, you know, supporting this episode. It's kind of nice to see a new name on the show. So, thank you guys.
I'm going to hit our morning intro. And then, we're going to go right into the Bidruption Report because I know you got lots to say about the startup of the week and a few other little big bidruption news, so I'm pumped.
Michael Ros: Cool.
Michael Ros: Hi. I'm going to start with the startup of the week.
This week, I have a startup from the US. I met the guys in February. In February, I went to San Francisco and to Silicon Valley. Also, on this trip, I visited the office of Airbnb where I was invited, but we’ll talk about Airbnb in a second. Actually, on the plug and play event, where Bidroom was nominated and was attending, I met the guys from TroopTravel. TroopTravel, actually, is a company which, actually, they start solving the question, actually, where do we meet? So, actually, they’re using millions of data points, actually, in location, carbon offset, security, fees and requirements, and many, many more to find the best place for a meeting.
So, when I saw their presentation in there, I was impressed. So, imagine you're having a company which has offices in different places, all over the world. They're actually suggesting a place where is the best to meet. So, also looking at carbon offset, pricing, hotels, flights. They're using all those data points and they come with a solution.
So, it could be, for example, when you’re a company, your headquarters is in Amsterdam. You have offices in London. Maybe another an office in the US. They might suggest meet in Africa because there-- if it all comes together this makes most sense. Or it could be, for example, a complete different location.
So, it's pretty interesting what they build. They also raise some money. And they got a lot of awards. Last year, I think, they had over 10 awards especially because they’re disrupting the market. For sure, it’s not easy now because they’re really focusing on B2B. But I think, if B2B comes back and probably is close to half, let’s spread like this, I think they can take a big chunk of the market because they're disrupting the way you’re booking, the way you're searching. So, most of the guys, I had a nice talk with them in February. It was one of my last travels. And, for sure, if B2B come back, for sure they will accelerate.
Also, of course, there are so many events this week. I'll be attending two. On Wednesday, I've got a WTFL, The World Tourism Forum Lucerne meetup. It's about innovation. It’s like a founder stock. So, together with Ros Atkins, of BBC, and to other founders, we’ll have a nice discussion about the ingredients of being a founder and entrepreneurship. So, it'll be really nice session as well. I mentioned before, the World Tourism Forum was important. As in 2017, we won the award. And, yeah, there will be nice discussion in founder stock.
And, on Friday, I'll be kind of a teacher again. I will just do a dialogue with some MBA students of the Hotel.School The Hague. So, they will ask questions about starting a company, about what is happening, actually, in your journey in starting a company, the ups and downs, low’s and high’s. So, I'm looking forward to teach the students again. I did it a few weeks ago for the Innovation School in Berlin. And this this week on Friday, I hopefully can teach the guys from the Hotel.School The Hague something.
So, that's my Bidruption Report for this week. And see you next week.
Michael Goldin: What a classic grandma! Wine and a donut for breakfast.
This week, it's going to be tough to ignore the Airbnb IPO. It is what everybody is going to be talking about. And I'm sure most media will be consumed with this. The IPO has been long awaited for and it's probably one of the most anticipated IPOs not only of the year but in a long, long time. And it's going to be a broader topic that we discussed today as a group but, in general, it's an interesting time for Airbnb to go public. Short‑term rentals have been the crown jewel of travel through Corona, but Corona has certainly still dampened a lot of numbers for almost every company that touches travel in the industry.
And so, we'll dive into a lot of the details a little bit further. But first, just one quick thing on the multiples that are going out with-- Wil, if you can get that up. So, Airbnb is going to be listing it just under a 10X multiple of revenue‑to‑valuation. And Booking is the only one that's going to be a little bit stronger than that. They're at about a 12X multiple. Expedia is only at 3.5X multiple. I think there's an argument, both ways, that Airbnb can be more valuable or less valuable just depending on your viewpoints and stance, but they haven't had the exposure to air travel, to hotels that the other two have, so there's certainly an argument that the valuations should be a little bit higher than their competitors in the short term. And, you know, we've all heard Airbnb talk about flights. They talked about hotels in the past. They talked about it in the prospectus with the purchase of HotelTonight. So, we know those are avenues they've explored and will likely continue to explore but multiple is certainly interesting compared to their direct competition which is Booking and Expedia.
And would love to get Michael and Wil's input on the IPO this week. Have you guys heard of it yet? Has the news crossed your plate yet?
Michael Ros: I heard something. I heard something.
No, it is interesting what's going to happen, right? You had mentioned the multiplier. I'm really curious how the landscape will look in 10 years, right? You see, they do the comparison of the valuation compared with hotel chains which has assets and etc. So, I'm really-- with all respect. And I just love what they did, of course. They disrupt markets. But, at the end, it’s just-- what they're owning is some servers with some great product on it, running, and that's pretty it. And it is impressive. I met them. I just mentioned that I went and I actually had a meeting with Sam Shank of HotelTonight, nice coffee, in February, and we talked about the hotel business. You know, in February they were more concerned about us than about COVID that time. So, it'd actually started. But it is interesting to look what is their growth potential, right? It's like the valuation now is set, which is a huge multiplier.
I think, now, you see some accommodations, some apartments moving out of Airbnb and moving into midterm or long‑term now because of COVID. And then, actually, where is the growth? What you mentioned, is it extra verticals? Is it maybe they're going to just investing in real estate or just going to step away from this? I'm really curious what will be their growth for their future, actually. What do you think?
Michael Goldin: In their prospectus they list a couple of growth paths. One is experiences. And it's long been known that Airbnb wants to own the entire trip. They haven't executed on it yet, but they've done piece by piece of hospitality and the actual rental side. They've added the experiences. So, once you get to the city now you have, you know, things to do.
I remember the days that I would sign up for those free walking tours that people would put on in cities across Europe and you tip them, you know, 10 Euros and you have a really cool experience, and you meet people. Aribnb is monetizing that through the experiences. And I think it can work. It's probably a lot harder now with Corona than before but they brought a lot of those things online.
Another area, Michael, that you mentioned was midterm and long‑term stays. And Airbnb, during COVID, added-- and booking.com did as well. So, they weren't the only ones-- added a midterm or long‑term stay capability. For now, they're kind of in the boat with a Zillow except, on Zillow, you can't one‑click book or three‑click books, as Airbnb likes to say. So, you know, if they're tapping into just a tiny fraction of the mid‑ and long‑term housing stock, that's a huge, huge potential for growth.
And then the last piece is, is gaining more and more travelers. And VRBO does a great job in the US of having a little bit older family type of customer. Airbnb is known to have more of the millennial‑style customer. And I think, you know, fast forward in 10, 20 years, Airbnb is going to be a really strong brand that it's going to be competitive. And Booking.com owns really the rest of the world. They're the global conglomerate. They certainly are the incumbent winner in travel everywhere outside of the US. And it's certainly publicly stated that the US is somewhere they want to be active and competing as well.
So, I think it's good that Airbnb finally goes public because a lot of their numbers will be listed. And we can all see exactly where everybody is. Listing counts, for example, last year, there was a tit for tat with Booking.com where Airbnb has this many listings and Booking has this many listings. And Airbnb has this many. And then, Booking’s like, okay, add in the hotels and we have 25 million listings. So, it is--
Michael Ros: --growth over there? If you look at listings, do you really think Airbnb can grow with the number of listings they have?
If you have a property you want to rent it out, it's just added already there, right? It just--
Michael Goldin: Yes and no. Yes and no because if you think about what trends really started during COVID was, you know, work from anywhere, not really having necessarily a home but just a home base. And if you have a home and you've just started to travel, now it's unlocking more inventory for the travelers to use or to be listed on, not just Airbnb but all the other platforms.
So, I do think listing count can increase. We'll see how many travelers continue to use short‑term rentals when the vaccine is out and effected and if those travelers were converted away from hotels and permanently to short‑term rentals. I think we all know that's not necessarily the case. I use short‑term rentals. I also use hotels. There's a time and place for both.
And I'm sure Michael, maybe don't want to admit it but you've probably used short‑term rentals before, too.
Michael Ros: I still prefer hotels. But even though, of course, it's nice to just have this this mix, right? I think it's healthy. I love to-- if I just have to go for work somewhere, I prefer of course to stay in the hotel. But it's nice to combine the bit. But it depends also on location, where you’re going.
I'm still really curious. When we talk about COVID, you see the regulations, right? I would say if you have a property, when it is out on Airbnb-- I heard some nice discussion last week on a podcast somewhere else and they had a discussion. Okay, does it really make sense to keep it on Airbnb because, first, I could rent it out 12 months to them. Now, I can only rent out one month. So, it doesn't really make sense to rent it out as an Airbnb or just going to just go for long‑term rent again? So, I'm really curious if regulators actually could decrease the number of listing because I don't see a lot of space left in increase. They might increase maybe listings when they’re adding more hotels, but I think, really, the vacation rental, really, the short‑term rental, apartments, etc. I'm not sure.
Michael Goldin: So, the answer is yes, absolutely. And that article that Wil’s going to share highlights that they've struck deals or relationships with 70% of their top cities. So, it's barely worked out, from a regulatory standpoint. That being said, San Diego is a pretty large market. It is seemingly moving forward with a cap on licenses. That's 50% what it is today. So yes, absolutely, it can go the other way.
But, if we also revisit our very first podcast on can a ApartHotel brand exist? There is almost certainly going to be the rise of hotel‑licensed short‑term rental properties that are 100% short‑term rental.
In cities like Amsterdam, where there's a cap on nights. Honestly, that's really only good for Airbnb because no one can afford to rent out their flat, full‑time, and make enough, you know, on 30 nights. But in in other cities-- and France has 120‑day limit, I think. And then, London has 120‑day limit. You can't really do it financially with that but there's other ways. In France, for example, if you convert an office into housing then you can get full short‑term rental permit. So, there's some companies that have done that. In London, there's certain license types that if you get, then you can rent out full time.
I think the next wave is on the legitimacy. And, yes, there will be a decent number of churn from the single hosts that might be just renting out their second home. And that is a key core market for Airbnb. But they also recognize that the majority of their revenue comes from professionals. And now that they're going public, you know, you can care about this single host all you want. And they've set up funds for hosts to buy pre‑IPO stock. And there's some really good stuff that they've done but they're going to be reporting to Wall Street now. And Wall Street cares about revenue. And the revenue comes from pro-hosts, so.
Michael Ros: Now that you talk about revenue, I'm really curious if you're looking at their revenue streams, like their business model, because its focused on transactions. They’re charging the host and the booker, the guest. This is even not allowed in the Netherlands. So, if you, as a guest, you can ask your feedback because you can't earn on both sides because it's more like the real estate broker market, right? You can't earn on both sides.
So, I'm really curious like are they going to keep similar business model or are they going into-- I mentioned before, I'm a bit surprised, in a Bidroom business model, so like subscription based? And I'll be surprised, you would say, if you really want to create loyalty and if you're looking at violation of SaaS model, so subscription services. So, it might be the case, okay, for the host, for example, he might keep a transaction or commission. But for the booker, for the guest, he doesn't pay any fees anymore. In this case, he pays a subscription.
I'm also curious in this case, then you're avoiding maybe the issue with is there now that you're earning on a transaction, on both sides. In that case, you say, can you get access to Airbnb, for example, and you’re paying a subscription. On the other hand, they can still charge the host. I'm really curious if they will make a shift in business model to maintain or go into higher valuation because, you know, if you have a guest and he’s paying subscription fee, you can do the multiplier, right, which is great for valuation, so.
Michael Goldin: True. But, I mean, look, private industry is always two steps ahead of public regulations. So, what happens in Amsterdam or Europe, in general, where you can't charge both sides, you just charge one side more. It's pretty straightforward. They can keep the same percentage. They just charge one side more money.
Wil Slickers: Yeah.
Michael Goldin: And-- go ahead, Wil.
Wil Slickers: Go ahead.
I was just going to say, as a host or like a property manager, I would like to see if they were to switch like that subscription model to like the host side because the management side just because, I think, when you're going through-- let's say you’re a property manager of 10 properties or more, and you're going off of a commission base but you bring in tons of revenue, in general, for all your property and your owners. That's like your one thing that really sucks is like calculating your commission and your payouts and just seeing like, you know, that percentage out the window versus where I would rather pay like, you know, $59‑a‑month fee,, or subscription, or whatever it may be. Obviously, Airbnb hasn't been known for taking care of its hosts or property managers in the sense of like making sure that they're happy in order to keep putting properties on their platform. But this is something like verbose and really well on. It's just taking care of the property managers, and taking care of the hosts, and doing that stuff. So, seeing where I think like long term where this might go and where it could go is if Airbnb really does want to, you know, make double revenue streams - guest and host, they hopefully will be smart enough to go in favor of the host on pricing, but we'll see. That's kind of my --
Michael Ros: --relationship.But I'm just curious what will happen, right? They have to maintain the relationship. There will be new commerce coming within a few years. It will be difficult because they haven't, of course, a huge market share. But I'm curious if there will be new players in the market with my type of business model, they might have low commissions or even though the low commission, of course, you should be able to disrupt the market on a different way.
I'm curious how they want to keep the relationship because, as an apartment owner, you're just flexible. You can rent it out to 10 different booking platforms. You don't care. You're just waiting for the booking that’s coming so it's not that you can-- you only have to get to one specific channel. So, I'm curious how they’re maintaining their relationship, on long term, with properties and the guest experience. But, I think, for the for the host, they just want to have the reservations, right, the bookings.
Michael Goldin: Yeah, there's a lot there. So, how do they view the relationship long‑term, I think, is probably different than how they viewed their relationship recently. People list where they're getting bookings. And Airbnb, especially in the US, drives a ton of bookings.
And so, hosts have just dealt with and put up with a lot of the crap that's been thrown their way. But what Airbnb’s done, that no other platform has tried to do, is grab exclusive rights to inventory. And with what ended up crashing and burning from Niido, where they invested in a multifamily short‑term rental operator company similar to what we discussed on our first episode, and they had 100% of the bookings. In fact, the tenants or residents of those buildings would be fined if they were listed anywhere else.
So, I think we could see all the platforms possibly being a little more aggressive towards exclusivity with them. And then, they can actually have unique inventory. And that's where you differentiate yourself, right? Right now it's who gets the booking and properties are more or less commoditized. And it's property managers jobs to stand out and not be commoditized. And that's where there's a big book‑direct movement going on. Hotels do a great job of getting a lot of direct bookings. Short‑term rentals, it's really hard to because you don't have a brand like Hilton or Marriott to have drive traffic. So, that's one.
And then what's the other threat? And I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up yet. But there's another company in San Francisco that is a huge threat to Airbnb, if they decided to go heavy into travel. It's Google. Even Facebook, who's really been dipping their toes into travel, lately. I mean, I don't know if you guys went to the Virtual Phocuswright Conference or not but-- I mean, there's been Facebook people at Phocuswright for the past handful of years.
Google is a bit more of an Enigma because of the whole monopoly thing. Their three largest customers in the world are Booking.com, Expedia, and Airbnb. And so, it's a little bit murkier for them. Certainly, going to be antitrust fights coming out if they jump in heavy into accommodations, but they're already in it, and they drive so much traffic. So, I think the biggest threat for Airbnb is not some small company rising up out of nowhere, or even the book direct movement. I think it's Google maybe helping this book directs folks or, you know, suppressing some of the big OTAs and raising the bar for smaller companies.
Michael Ros: I think, mybooking was successful as well. It is that, of course, they make it really accessible to find a hotel, to read the right information. There were pictures, the same format. If you go to any separate booking website or like individual hotel, they all look the same. We all have to search, Where can I find information about location or pictures? I think, of course, what Airbnb did extremely well is, of course, because of the fear, like okay, is it an apartment? How does it look like, right? They just don't have the trust because, in hotels, it’s quality pictures. And then, what they did well, of course, is like they were making sure that the quality of the pictures are great.
I think that's of course, what is Google missing. Of course, they can source a lot because they're king in sourcing information, but I think they are not allowed to even take the pictures, all of them from Airbnb. I think they already have the advantage. What I think are needed extremely well and I think that’s may be why they're in a position like this and worth-- is it 40 billion or so, because they really step out by doing something which make double or triple their business that time is by presenting an apartment, right, or presenting a short‑term rental via amazing pictures and make it personal with the host, making great information. I think that was their biggest advantage because selling out the room was not impressing. It was out there, right? But the way they present it was really well done. And I think that's why they're successful in what they did.
So yes, you can have Google, for example, in reservations, and in the hotel business, and in short‑term rental but still the way of presenting information, compared in Airbnb by the property location and everything, compare with Google - not sure.
Michael Goldin: Google's basically become the meta site, right, the metasearch. And metasearch is largely faded away as a result. And, it's also faded away a little bit as a result of people being very familiar with the brands booking.com, Expedia, and Airbnb, right? People have their favorites. They go to them directly and that's that, but I think, from a meta standpoint, most people start their search on Google.
Wil Slickers: 100%. Google.
I honestly like the one thing I see from the article that we were talking about, when we're talking about all the other stocks for hotels, like Marriott, or Booking, or Expedia, or whatever. I honestly, like the one thing that they have different is that hotel inventory, compared to Airbnb-- yeah, they have HotelsTonight but that's not the biggest, you know, OTA out there. It got a lot of buzz when that was purchased and acquired by Airbnb, but I don't think-- after that, I don't think I've ever gotten on the platform again. Like, I went on it for a little bit and was like, “Oh, check us out.”
But the other day, I think the one thing that we're going to have to like really-- I'm hoping on is that like companies like Marriott will come in and just really, you know, try to make sure that they control another segment of that, in the sense of making Airbnb realize that they need more than just vacation rentals. Vacation rentals are great but Airbnb’s overall-- I just think, you know, the 2020 year has been played out in an interesting way that, I think, it's kind of maybe going to just be a trend, you know, for a while. And then, eventually, they're going to have to continue to find ways to innovate and get into the other game with everybody else.
Michael Goldin: That's actually a really, really good point.
We saw, over the weekend, The Core is jumping into short‑term rentals a little bit heavier. Fairmont’s always kind of been in the luxury residential side. So, now, we've got Marriott. We've got The Core. IHG hasn't done anything yet. Hyatt has gone back and forth into it. But all the hotels are going to be into it, especially now that Marriott’s kind of proven it can be successful.
Wil Slickers: That’s right.
Michael Goldin: And those travelers-- I mean, my dad would never travel and stay anywhere except a Marriott. He was amazingly brand loyal to them. And I'm sure he is the kind of person that would book a short‑term rental through Marriott also. And hotels do own travelers. Delta owns me. I will only fly Delta like--
Wil Slickers: We know [laughter].
Michael Goldin: Everybody knows but now--
Michael Ros: But I still think it's easier for a hotel to go into short‑term rental because we have got this whole experience on how to deal with guests. I think opposite is much more difficult, so I don't-- if you see the go from Marriott into short‑term rental, turning into apartments, I don't think it's so difficult.
Compare the opposite, you see also with Airbnb, when I was talking there, is if you're looking also at the whole connectivity space, right, it just by adding apartments, there's one whole room and that's it. When you have a hotel, you've got 250 rooms, so you just have completely different operations. And also, the way of distribution, connectivity, etc. So, I think that was like a hurdle, when I spoke with Airbnb, Sam Shank, in February, is like this connectivity part, actually. And that is something.
Well, in Bidroom, we're investing a lot in this and build our own. But I think there's a huge difficulty, actually. And of course, they have the resources or they should acquire us. But if you see the resources that Airbnb has, they really have to invest a lot in connectivity, if you want to go into the hotel space, which is much easier when you do the connectivity in the short‑term rental space.
Michael Goldin: I wouldn't say it's easier. I'd say it's a lot easier to bring on 250 rooms that are the exact same than sort of 250 properties that are all different.
Michael Ros: I think it's the same but that's a difficulty because they all have some unique ingredients, which you have to just mapping differently. We went through it, but if I think about it I get a headache again, so maybe you should move to a different topic. But it's real mapping and if you think it’s one and the same rooms, it's not the same rooms.
Michael Ros: Operationally, Wil, you've managed both sides. Like, what are some of the key differences and like, how would it affect Airbnb? Like, what challenges would they see moving from fragmented short‑term rentals to like large blocks of hotels?
Wil Slickers: You see, that's the thing. Like I've on boarded vacation rentals into Airbnb and other platforms via software. You know, hostfully, for example, is a great one. But it's a lot more detail that goes into that listing because you're building it out on multiple channels versus when you're doing a hotel, when you're uploading it into pretty much the whole system, you have-- like, if I had a 70-- I'll just use my last hotel, for example. 70‑unit all‑suite property. You know, we have five different room types. And the only difference is really were riverview or mountain view. And then, of course, you know, two‑bedroom, one‑bedroom, studio, etc. And so, it’s like there wasn't as much detail. When you're building a listing though for like a short‑term rental, like one property, there's so much more depth. And to explain it, like you're creating a journey for the guest, in the sense, especially if you're not like doing direct, you're doing OTA listing exactly like Airbnb VRBO--
Michael Goldin: --guaranteed because there's no standardization, right? Like I don't know if there's going to be an iron, that I can iron my shirt when I stay in a short‑term rental, but in a hotel like you just assume that it's there.
Wil Slickers: You can almost guarantee it.
Michael Goldin: In terms of photographs, like the average hotel room has five to seven pictures of it in its listing. And the average short‑term rental, for you to rank high on platforms like VRBO, you have to have 20‑plus. And so, it is, I think-- and I've never been behind the scenes on hotels, Ros, but I think it's probably far more complex on the short‑term rental side.
Wil Slickers: All right. Well, we're going to throw it out to the listener and see what they see what they say. Anyone who's listening, we’ve got like five of you-- four of you going on right now. So, you just tell us what you think and we want to hear more because this is the fun-- We have Goldin and salesforce going at it and now we have Goldin and Ros.
Michael Ros: The hotel space, right? I'm not saying bad things about short‑term rental because I just don't like it a lot. But if you're looking at still renting out an apartment which is just ready or having a hotel where you’re operational‑wise which you just have to take care of like different kinds of bookings, different room types, different rate plans. When you have also, you know, you have reception downstairs. And then, apartments get used to like self‑check‑in. To make it easier, the host lives nearby. You have a restaurant to run breakfast and everything. There is the whole operational part in it without trying to explain moving from an apartment to a hotel opposite. I think it's a huge difference but it's still, when you look in connectivity.
And that's like we can spend a whole episode on this one. It’s like this connectivity, in general, I think, is so fragmented and difficult, and those standards, and etc. And I think that make it difficult sometimes to enter the whole hotel space. I had some discussion also with general managers a few days ago and they even agree like yes, we try to keep it difficult to move to different channel managers because otherwise they're moving out.
So, I think when the space and it's pretty-- if you're looking at-- think about short‑term rental, you think about Airbnb. People call it, ”I'm staying at Airbnb” even though they didn't book an Airbnb, they call it an Airbnb. I say in the book enough comments. If I just think about, I would just get sad. Okay, you know, my ways of thinking about booking but it is, you're staying in Marriott, you're staying in a hotel or whatever, it’s--
I mean, we're getting also-- that's why it really helped them, I think, in building the name awareness is like you’re calling a short‑term rental, you just call it an Airbnb, right? So, I think that helped them a lot in the whole brand awareness.
But what you should do funds, by the way, if one of you’re just looking, look back at there. One of their first pitch decks, actually, I just found them some time ago, how it looked like. It was impressive to see like really what was-- is air bed and breakfast, whatever. It was so long. And you see their styling, their branding. It's amazing to see still. And Well done by the guys to see how they started with renting out an air mattress to a company now which is valued over $40 billion. So, yeah, again, it's--
I'm really curious whether, if we have the talk in 10 years, around Christmas time in 2030, what would their valuation then?
Wil Slickers: I would say with the-- you talk about like taking control, you know, like of the listen, like people say, “I book on Air-- or I have an Airbnb or I'm, you know, booking an Airbnb, or staying at Airbnb,” or whatever the term is. That’s is like the one thing that we preach. It's like clients and friends, and like even my parents like I've been preaching this like into their head since day one. They're like, “Oh, our Airbnb this. Our Airbnb that.” It's like, well, no, it's not your Airbnb. It’s your property on Airbnb. We have to tell them that all the time.
I'm glad Airbnb did what they did in the beginning of 2020 with the, you know, full refund cancellation because it woke a lot of people up. And that says-- and we've talked about this before, I feel like all our episodes from episode one all the way to now have all connected somehow. But it's just the taking back control of the booking and really focusing on branding like that's the one thing hotels have really done well. And vacation rentals, as we shift from host to property manager and the professionalization side of things, I think we're going to see that shift as well, go with, you know, that whole mindset and taking back control.
Awesome. Well, I think that is a good way to cut it off. I'm going to leave a final question. Shout out to, you know, the listeners and followers who have been watching. We had a pretty good interaction this morning. So, I guess, in the comments, if you're watching the live or the replay, I want to hear - Where do you stay when you travel? Is it a hotel or vacation rental, pre COVID? What’s it now during COVID? And where do you expect to stay after? You can answer one of those three. And we would love to hear your thoughts and see what you guys are doing.
I'll let you to take it away. Do you have any final thoughts or conclusions for the episode?
Michael Ros: I'm curious, actually, because Airbnb started in 2008, right? They started in a crisis. Well, I think all of us can confirm that we have a crisis now. So, really curious, actually, what people thinks. And they can also leave in the comments what they think it will be this called the new Airbnb? So, in the year 12 or so from now, which could actually become quite big. Now, of course, you can all mention Bidroom, it’s fine. But if you have a different one in mind, feel free to share as well.
I'm really curious because they started disrupting the market really in the crisis. Now, we have-- I don't want to call it a similar situation but, yeah, we do have a crisis now. I'm really curious what kind of other initiative, kind of business models, kind of things will appear now in travel. Maybe if one of you know one, feel free, because I could mention them as a startup of the week.
But I'm really curious, if we’d have this conversation, I mentioned 10 years, which will be the new one?
Wil Slickers: 100%.
Michael Ros: And I'm excited for our conversation next week, it will be able to recap what the IPO actually did. So, let's see what the outside full public markets can tell us.
Wil Slickers: 100%.
Michael Ros: $40 billion next week.
Michael Ros: More.
Wil Slickers: More than 50?
Michael Goldin: I think there's going to be a nice retail pop. And then, how much it balances out after that, I am no expert, but I can almost certainly say after the listing, it'll definitely pop.
Wil Slickers: Yeah, I give it maybe 24 to 48 hours, and then maybe a little dip, maybe. Maybe less.
Michael Goldin: I am no expert trader, so I'll leave my thoughts--
Wil Slickers: Yeah, we’ll just put a disclaimer on the episode, “We are not professional stock traders or day traders” sort of thing.
Michael Ros: Yeah, just make sure before we get a lawsuit.
Michael Goldin: We're not giving anybody any financial advice. Do not listen to us.
Wil Slickers: Exactly.
Well, thank you guys. We'll see all the listeners and viewers that we had this morning and other people watching on the replay next week. And we're going to talk about obviously the IPO and how it did.
So, thank you guys for tuning in and we are super pumped.